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Feb 22, 2011, 12:10 PM // 12:10
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#41 | |||
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
There will be no second spike with MoP. There will be no "allow the mob to reset". If the mob is still alive after the initial spike they will all be low enough to die to YMLAD -> AP -> FH -> AP triggers. You have not grasped this. Quote:
- You don't have to KD an entire mob, because not the entire mob will have interrupts. AP is rarely interrupted if you know how to use it. - I'm not afraid, only you are. You see, you can easily trigger Hex Breaker with Rigor Mortis (1s cast). Also, you are not the only person in the team with hexes. Thinking that Hex Breaker is instawin against AP is like thinking that you'll never be hexed if you have Hex Breaker on your bar. Oh, and Hex Breaker doesn't have 7s cooldown. - If the Necro is casting Weaken Armour he isn't casting Searing Flames = lower DPS for your entire team. Do you care only about the DPS of yourself and ignore the DPS of everyone else? Note as well that Weaken Armour does not negate Shield of Regen's +40 armour (for example). - Newsflash: AP is interrupted very rarely. MoP should be interrupted even less. Tell me how you are getting interrupted so often. Besides, you can lose MoP and get it back with AP. - Incubi hurts AP bars way less than SF bars. You can use YMLAD to KD Shock, you know, and it is absurdly easy to predict when a monster is going to use Shock. You can use shouts while KD'ed or Dazed. You can do nothing with SF. If Incubi don't stay balled SF damage drops dramatically, more dramatically than MoP damage. Multiple Incubi remove enchantments faster than E/Mo's can replace them. Gaze of Contempt and Rend Enchantments go through all the enchantment covers you care to have (so much for Strip Enchant and Chiblains are the "only" removals that will punch through that much coverage ...). Quote:
If you are going to run Elemental damage, make sure it is Invoke Lightning. Last edited by Jeydra; Feb 22, 2011 at 12:43 PM // 12:43.. |
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Feb 22, 2011, 01:52 PM // 13:52
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#42 | ||||
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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If you have cracked armor on 100 armor, instead of 70.7% of listed you will get 1.2311x with 40% armor penetration air magic. Numerically that's 130.5 instead of 75 damage from Invoke Lightning (before glyph of elemental power, elemental lord, consumables, etc.). With +15% armor penetration and using 15 Fire magic 100 damage Searing Flames, you will attain 65 without cracked armor and 87 with cracked armor or 65 vs 120 armor with cracked armor. If we were to just tack on +25 damage, we'd get 75 without cracked armor and 96 with cracked armor and against 120 armor with cracked armor it'd still be a paltry 75 damage. For Searing Flames (assuming no triggers from HSR weapons), +25 is +12.5DPS/mob, which is less than the burning 14DPS/mob. If the current functionality is kept, then +15% armor penetration could be +10% armor penetration and you would do 81.2% to 100 armor casters with cracked armor + 50% of that, which is 121.8%. At the top end, 120 armor with cracked armor, 89.175% listed (with 10% armor penetration x 1.5) since 59.5% is done to 100 armor targets with 10% armor penetration to lower it to 90. Going the +40% damage route (without the lame 10 recharge and 1 proc) would be more solid. It would mean any target with 100 armor and cracked armor takes listed damage, whereas anything with 120 armor and cracked armor takes 70%. It goes downhill from there, where 140 armor with cracked armor takes 50%. With +40% damage then Orb (or Weaken armor + Invoke) would do 1.82x to 80 armor targets and 1.08x to 120 armor and 83.2% to 140 armor. Even then the only viable spammy AoE is searing flames unless you run AP bars with eruption/churning earth. 10 recharge is achievable with Glyph of Renewal though. That's why people were quick to test current Intensity with 5 recharge DwG /Spirit Rift rather than ele skills: there's very few viable AoE skills. Some elemental damage AOEs are outright unusable in PvE: Frozen Burst / Whirlwind/ Aftershock/ Flame Burst / Star Burst/ Double Dragon/ Shockwave / Flame Djinn's Haste / Crystal Wave / Teinai's Crystals are all gimmicky due to melee range, so unless you run Armor of earth or something you're going to forgo them. 100 or so damage from the latter two aren't even impressive since you can get that from clumsiness/wandering eye/Ineptitude easily without 20 recharge, removal of conditions, and touch/melee range. Dragon's Stomp/Earthquake are exhaustion limited to 30 recharge and have 3 cast. With stuff like Unsteady Ground and Sandstorm, you need Glyph of swiftness or arcane echo since Glyph of Renewal and Assassin's Promise are elite. Eles are balanced to normal armor levels (see GvG Invoke spikes, mind blast, ether prodigy flaggers/ether prism flaggers, and water snares) and when mobs have 100-130 armor it just can't compete. Even in PvP they are only spike support or utility since your big damage is on 8 cooldown (Invoke, Rodgort) save for searing flames, which is RC bait seeing how if someone runs tormentor's/disciple's/blessed/sentinel's they're on 70 or 75 armor + 5 from spear + 8 minimum from shield + another 10 to fire =93 to 98 armor. Of course mobs don't have shield sets, but it's essentially as if they have permanent shield sets (100 armor casters). If you want to argue HM prepares you for PvP then I'd say Warriors should not have more than 116+15 armor (+10 vs type shield+defense weapon) and paragons should not have more than 90+16+15 (+10 vs type shield+defense weapon)=121 and rangers should not have more than 121 (ironically since they run no shield they have less than warriors/paragons). There are some mobs that make me go WTF, I'll just wand with Splinter weapon (160 to 170 armor on Spectral Vaettir). If I'm doing 17 out of 100, I'd rather use my vamp spear + splinter weapon and get 47-53 damage on 3 targets. Quote:
And then it would borderline break stuff by pumping out 65+ DPS/mob nearby range AoEs, losing EBSoH due to damage conversion ...so you gain +10 overall and don't need to stand in a 20s recharge ward. Not really, since Spiteful Spirit is easily 41DPS on 10 recharge (albeit reactive and necessitating Awaken the Blood) and RoJ is already armor ignoring [email protected] (due to burning, 48+14). Damage conversion doesn't ignore armor though, see Heart of Holy Flame /Avatar of Dwayna / Avatar of Balthazar / Avatar of Lyssa / Avatar of Grenth with a Dervish that has a fixed damage weapon like a wintergreen scythe. Judge's Insight tacks on 20% armor penetration so it's not a good test skill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- @Kaidra: your math is wrong. I was too busy writing up a decent change for Intensity (that would let eles do listed damage on 100armor casters and air magic to do 180-190) to care yesterday. Quote:
The Fire ele is pushing 11+1 Energy storage just to get those spells out with Glowing Gaze +6. If you lower to 9+1 Energy storage then it's +5, and 7+1 or 8+1 it is likely Searing Flames will bottom out... 15 energy with an attunement is 9 energy (8 after Aura of restoration), so the energy situation is only slightly better for the ele (at the cost of GG,AoR,attune = 3 slots, ele lord if you are going to waste pve skills), seeing how Ineptitude +clumsiness costs 10 each, wandering eye costs 5, signet of clumsiness costs 0 unless there's Primal Echoes (lol). There's no comparison, the illusion mes does more unless there's 0 attacking enemies in the ball/mob. Even casters autoattack...it's not PvP. I'll keep it at 15 illusion, 0 FC for base numbers 110-115 on wandering eye (15 -16 Illusion) with 12 recharge, 2 cast = base 7.9DPS/mob 92-97 Clumsiness with 8 recharge, 2 cast = base 9.2DPS/mob 135-142 Ineptitude with 15 recharge, 1 cast = base 8.44 DPS/mob 60-63 Signet of Clumsiness with 8 recharge, 0.25 cast (only reason why this is decent is because it doesn't tap into energy, casts in <1/4, and it knocks down) = base 7.27 DPS/mob =32.81 base DPS/mob x 5 mobs = 164.05 without fast casting. I can run a fail mesmer and do comparable damage to a Quote:
10 energy is sustainable every 7.5s unassisted which means this needs energy management, just like searing Flames. Energy management time via Power Drain/Leech signet/Waste not, want not/anything not energy tap is <1 second due to fast cast and 1/4 base cast time versus 1.75s on glowing gaze or glyph of lesser energy and 2.75s on attunement. And they have utility. You could even use Glyph of lesser energy on a Me/E. People do it with Panic, after all. Realistically, 16 Illusion, 11FC, 9 Inspir 115 on wandering eye with 8 effective recharge, 1.34 cast = 12.31DPS/mob 97 Clumsiness with 5.34 recharge, 1.34 cast = 14.52 DPS/mob 142 Ineptitude with 10 recharge, 0.67 cast = 13.31 DPS/mob 63 Signet of Clumsiness with 8 recharge, 0.167 cast (only reason why this is decent is because it doesn't tap into energy, casts in <1/4, and it knocks down; FC doesn't affect signet recharges) = 7.71DPS/mob 47.85DPS/mob x 5= 239.25 DPS vs 5 mobs , plus utility of interrupts and blind/KD. FC at 11 makes both cast speed for spells and signet and recharge for spells 66.7%, for easy calculating. It's also what I typically run when I have 17+ sec recharges like Power drain. Doesn't it bother you that a Mesmer has the potential to outdamage your theoretical Searing Flames ele, using 1 attribute line at 15, rather than 12 energy storage and 17 fire with 4 skills (that do nothing) just to pump out the damage? And if you have hexes flying around, Accumulated Pain does over 175 damage every 8seconds @11FC (75+ deepwound). For my not-so theoretical Keystone 12+1+1 fast cast = breakpoint for 6 procs on keystone ; 58% signet activation; 10+1 Inspiration (breakpoint for maintaining mantra of inscriptions 20s) 8 Smiting Keystone signet = [email protected] x6 procs, 10.2s recharge = 5.58DPS/mob x6 procs =33.48DPS/mob Signet of clumsiness = [email protected], 5.44s recharge = 10.48DPS/mob --> the key element here for AoE Unnatural Signet = [email protected] (+47 to adjacent if hexed), 6.8 recharge = 10.44DPS, 6.911DPS/mob if hexes Signet of disruption = [email protected], 10.2 base recharge --> trytophan has more utility but no more damage and we're going for damage here = 4.7DPS Signet of Corruption/Leech Signet/Castigation signet = 54dmg if you run castigation, 13.6 recharge = 3.97DPS mantra of inscriptions (-32% recharge at 11, maintainable 20s/20s) Symbolic Celerity - recharge is 58% on spells @14FC so 17s. compare this to a stripped attunement! Strength of honor x 4 (+16) In practice you'll fire off 6 signets (Signet of clumsiness, Unnatural Signet, Signet of Disruption, Castigation Signet, Signet of Clumsiness, Unnatural Signet in 7-8 seconds) unless you drop SoH for a 6th signet. AOEs Keystone alone is 33.48DPS/mobx4 + 10.48*4 from sig of clumsiness if you have hexes flying around for unnatural sig then another 6.911DPS/mob *4 if we presume you only hit 4 of 5 targets it's still 203.484DPS. On the direct target unaffected by Keystone: Sig of Clumsiness: 10.48DPS Unnatural sig: 10.44DPS Sig of disruption: 4.7DPS Castigation sig: 3.97DPS =29.59DPS assuming your +48 on or +80 on melee don't hit what you are casting on because they are preoccupied Assuming you run a non-gimmicky triple melee setup you have 3 procs of SoH so that you can recast symbolic celerity with your high energy set (castigation gives +9 energy 13.6s so it's easy), that's 48DPS not including AoEs like whirlwind attack or multihits from scythe. If you run more gimmicky 5x melee (gimmicky in terms of team build, not player build, because you have 5 melee, 1 mesmer, 2 backline), you get an easy 80DPS. 203.484DPS+29.59DPS on target+64DPS=297DPS (313DPS with 5 melee, 281.5 w/ 3 melee), without a superior rune, PVE skills, or energy management crap What searing flames damage? Last edited by LifeInfusion; Feb 22, 2011 at 06:06 PM // 18:06.. |
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) or dark/chaos damage or + 15 to 25 bonus damage or some degree of bonus AP. Cost 10e, recharge 20secs.|
Feb 22, 2011, 02:21 PM // 14:21
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#43 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Scotland
Guild: Fuzzy Physics Institute
Profession: E/
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@ LifeInfusion - I hear what you are saying, but I think you are ignoring the boost my suggestion will give to DoTAoE as well as AoE.
I know there is scatter, but if the damage from Sandstorm/Tenai's/Unsteady Ground etc was effectively armour ignoring via conversion to holy/shadow damage, then even if there is scatter, at least the damage will have a chance to be effective  My suggestion would give a boost across the board and if I'm right about how armour ignoring damage works, i.e. the damage affects all mobs as if they had 60AL it would proportionately affect damage done to HM mobs more. |
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Feb 22, 2011, 05:41 PM // 17:41
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#44 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Fissure of Woe
Guild: [LOD]/[GS]/[DL]/[LOD*]
Profession: N/P
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Kaida just got outmathed. Nice post life.
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Feb 22, 2011, 05:47 PM // 17:47
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#45 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: N/
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@Jeydra: Sigh. Just had to start getting an attitude, eh?
How is having another character needing to cast Weaken Armor a disadvantage? You have other characters attacking with MoP to generate more damage, isn't it the same thing? Both are increasing DPS. There is no healing reduction with Deep Wound in this instance. The target is dying and recharge Assassin's Promise. If not, the healing reduction is almost negligible since you failed to recharge your spike and have lost tremendous amounts of DPS. I have grasped "YMLAD!", "FH!", and AP for killing targets after the spike. I also calculated this if you would take the time to go back and look. - I have already acknowledged the fact that MoP synergizes with a team better than any other build in the game. I have also already mentioned that the comparison isn't exactly even because NOTHING will match MoP's damage and would be better met if SF was compared to Illusion Mesmers or Ritualists, like in LifeInfusion's post. - HexBreaker is a 7 second recharge in hardmode. "Monsters' attack speed, movement speed, skill casting speed, and skill recharge rate are all increased to be 33-50% faster than normal." We are playing in Hard Mode right? We can move this to Normal Mode if you'd like. Oh, and they precast it, meaning Rigormortis get's denied, it's recast, then your MoP gets denied. - "If the Necro is casting Weaken Armour he isn't casting Searing Flames = lower DPS for your entire team." Er... You lost me. I mean, I'd hope my Necro's aren't casting Searing Flames, but eh, .. what? .. - "If Incubi don't stay balled SF damage drops dramatically, more dramatically than MoP damage." Wait, why is that? I thought MoP had the "adjacent" attribute and Searing Flames had the area. Silly me! Also, are we forgetting that your EVA is going to be hit with Blinding Flash the moment he *poofs* in from ninja land? "I think so too. Even neglecting the amount of bad arguments in your post, the amount of factual inaccuracies in your post is appalling. You tried to pass off AP as 60s recharge, then Hex Breaker as 7s recharge, then implicitly claimed there are enough interrupts on a mob such that YMLAD cannot stop them all but there are not enough enchantment removals on a mob such that Fire Attunement is always covered, and finally forgot about Gaze of Contempt and Rend Enchantments (not to mention Diversion, Mistrust, Guilt, Migraine, Arcane Conundrum and Prot Spirit). You claimed that monsters die so MoP damage is less, but don't notice that SF damage is affected more by scatter / few targets. And finally you claimed that the Necromancer needs Asuran Scan for some reason to get his physicals to stop missing despite the fact that Asuran Scan does nothing of that sort (just read the description). I'm not wasting my time posting. " I have committed only a few factual inaccuracies. These things happen when you crunch numbers and haven't been up to par on GW gaming time. The Assassin's Promise recharge wasn't intentional, nor does it even matter at this point, because apparently, AP is impossible to disrupt. I'll reiterate: where is your MM to take the enchant strips? Xandra almost never loses Boon of Creation, and that's not even covered. Diversion, Mistrust, Guilt, Migraine, Arcane Conundrum all effect MoP just as terribly for the most part. Prot Spirit was you're most valid point here, but taking 12 damage off a single target per cast isn't going to impact DPS as much as you think. So, why is MoP less effected by scatter again? Pretty such it has a super-tiny range. You can check me on that, I know I've been pretty unreliable. Also, the damage IS less when targets are dying. You are hitting a single, near-dead target with 260 damage in 2 skills in MoP's case. SF damage is much more consistent and thus doesn't have the massive spillover amounts since the damage is delivered in many smaller packets. Do you really want me to rerun the counts using equal numbers? You realize that MoP has had an extra target this whole time, right? Even if we reduce them both, it's not going to change anything. I didn't say Asuran Scan helped the EVA. I was joking because someone else said it did, so I was asking what they we're going to take out to put it in so that the EVA still wouldn't be able to hit. Also, don't leave! We might miss y- okay not at all. Don't let the door hit you. @LifeInfusion: Finally! Someone crunching some serious numbers. I'm glad you took the time, because the numbers I gave for Illusion were just damage/cast+recharge (with FC roughly factored in). I had only intended on ball-parking the damage. The 16 Illu is fine. I didn't know if that's what people actually ran or not. I know the Ele can usually be kept at +4 since monsters treat AoR or Ele Lord like Mending. I kept the FC at 9, since that's where the numbers really start curving, once again, not accustomed to Mesmer norms. And yes, now that I see some solid numbers, the Illu Mesmer is a little upsetting. I didn't realize the DPS was quite that high, not to mention the the Keystone Mes. I'd have to do some in-game testing on how mobs react scatter-wise when hit with any of the illusion stuff. Regardless, I'm sure that even with scatter factored in, the Mesmers would still hold their own. Makes me wonder if Ele damage needs to be toned up or Mesmer damage toned down. :P I'll have to run some DWG numbers later. Even the rough calcs I did we're pretty nasty. Quote:
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Feb 22, 2011, 05:56 PM // 17:56
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#46 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2009
Guild: TGB
Profession: W/
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SF is no good if your team has degen. It is, imho, not useful at all to compare degen DPS to direct DPS.
For instance, if your team has 2 or more of the following (these are useful and/or used often)... - Anthem of Flame - Avatar of Balthazar - Avatar of Grenth - Balthazar's Rage - Cry of Pain - Faintheartedness - Mark of Rodgort - Poison Nova - Ray of Judgment - Rodgort's Invocation - Searing Heat/Teinai's Heat ... SF basically ends up doing pathetic damage. Not to mention the non-AoE skills: - Animate Shambling Horror (on attack) - Aura Slicer (minor AoE) - Blazing Spear - Envenom Enchantments - Jagged Strike (spammed) - Jagged Bones (on attack) - Glass Arrows (on attack) - Glyph of Immolation - Immolate - Incendiary Arrows (minor AoE) - Overload (granted, it's often followed by Shatter Delusions) - Phantom Pain - Putrid Bile - Rip Enchantment - Wounding Strike (minor AoE) And those with situational use: - Cautery Signet + Plague Sending - Tainted Flesh DPS-wise, it's thus perhaps better to compare the SF ele to the FD mesmer (which has loads of support and has way better team synergy). |
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Feb 22, 2011, 06:10 PM // 18:10
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#47 | |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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Scatter doesn't matter with the mesmers. You're not stationary ball -reliant as MoP or Eles. As long as they are remotely in adjacent range, it doesn't matter if they are adjacent as in where they started or adjacent running away in fear of the pink signets/illusion spells. And if the things die with casts, you can say screw it and switch targets in 0.6 seconds rather than wasting 15 energy on setting air on fire.
The reason I bother posting that here is because people say mesmers don't do damage. To push those numbers on an ele you need 1 second recharge 0 energy searing flames with 0 cast energy management and intensity since the signets have 0.6 cast at best. As an aside, this is why you don't rip builds off PvXwiki. 13 inspiration is not necessary. If a signet has below 20 base recharge, it makes no (0.6s...) difference between 11 and 13.  @ Haggis, and heaven forbid if you run a Minionbomber to ball your AoEs. There goes 1 degen. Jagged Bones = 3 more degen. So Searing flames is basically doing cry of pain/desecrate enchantments damage to everything with 120 armor (no cracked armor doesn't make 120 armor into 60 armor), at the cost of 4 slots (attune+ aura of restor + 1 of which is a PVE skill, ele lord) and an elite slot. On a side note, this is why for HM damage I have a RoJ/UA/Burst monk, MoP/SS/MM necro, Panic/Keystone/Illusion mes, on top of my ER/AP/Invoke/Bsurge ele that was originally used for GvG (Ether Prodigy days). Rit is too boring and you can't aim it...although it pumps out 200+DPS, single target (26x3 SoS + 26 bloodsong + 21x #spirits painful bond=188 , if you run +20 from Vampirism = 229 and you can spec 12+1 Restor for Spirit Light + Mend Body And soul , leaving 2 slots for Vanguard sin, pain inverter, Fleshy of my flesh or whatever). EDIT: And fun stuff with rangers. Quote:
12+1+1 Marks, 12+1 Expertise R/W Barrage, Lightning reflexes, Drunken Master/Frenzy, SY!, D-shot, 3 optionals (EBSOH is on 20 cooldown/ "I am the strongest!"; Res; antidote sig for hero) The barrage numbers are conservative. If you have a Paragon churning out GFTE! you do more. [email protected] = 48DPS/mob RoJ + burning = 240Damage , +112 from 8s burn=352 over 5seconds. That's about 70DPS/mob, so 350DPS over 5seconds. It's just not sustainable, so once you count 20 recharge... 350/20=17.5DPS, 35DPS if you arcane echo and 70DPS if you manage to get lucky on ebon vanguard standard of wisdom or your 20% recharge wand and focus or staff. But RoJ is about the spike that doesn't cause scatter. Last edited by LifeInfusion; Feb 22, 2011 at 08:19 PM // 20:19.. |
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Feb 22, 2011, 06:17 PM // 18:17
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#48 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: N/
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Quote:
Also, luckly enough for the Ele, SF will finish casting if the foe dies. Edit: Didn't rip 'em off wiki. Ripped 'em off my heroes. I usually run 8 or 9 insp. |
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Feb 22, 2011, 06:51 PM // 18:51
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#49 | |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
I didn't say you ripped it off PvX. It's just why I don't like PvX. Not everything is min-maxed to the extent of 0.6seconds :P MoP and any form of DOT will cause more scatter than any Keystone or Illusion mesmer will. I've run the Illusion build on heroes when I was running my monk with a heal build and a full damage team. |
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Feb 22, 2011, 06:54 PM // 18:54
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#50 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Scotland
Guild: Fuzzy Physics Institute
Profession: E/
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Quote:
http://www.guildwiki.org/Damage_type & http://www.guildwiki.org/Ignore_armor you would be correct insofar as the damage done by the scythe attacks would not ignore armour - to quote " Weapons dealing these types of damage do not ignore armor (unless used in junundu form)." What I'm looking for is basically for ele spells to have armour ignoring damage via conversion to shadow (or possibly holy) damage via intensity. In my ideal world, under Intensity with that functionality, your spells would do exactly the damage you see in their description. No more 40-60%+ damage reduction due to HM mobs AR - eles back to the high risk/high damage class they should be. How you deal with AI scatter is down to your playstyle and tactics. I really don't see what harm it would do Anet to give this a try. Hell - if I'm wrong and eles become ridiculously OP at a stroke, I'll put my hands up and accept some toning down. However, this surely can't be too difficult to trial????? 
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Feb 22, 2011, 07:54 PM // 19:54
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#51 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2007
Guild: The Angelic Guard
Profession: P/
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Quote:
re: the math above I am not convinced of its accuracy, the damage potential of AoE effects can't be calculated easily because it depends heavily on how many targets are caught within the area. For Searing Flames, Energy Surge, Earthquake, etc. the "nearby" area allows one to catch many foes within the area easily. For "adjacent" area (keystone, MoP, splinter) it is difficult to get more than 2-3 foes in most areas unless you are assuming a tank'n'spank playstyle where you can get more than one mob and take the time to ball them up tightly. For Mark of Pain the calculations get even more complicated, because while Searing Flames and similar do damage multiplied by number of targets, Mark of Pain does damage multiplied by number of targets (minus one, because the MoP target takes no damage from it) multiplied by the number of hits. For Searing Flames the number of hits is 1, for MoP it depends on the team composition and attack speed since they are supplying the hits. MoP wins if hits>>1 and targets hit are equal; however targets hit are not usually going to be equal because nearby>adjacent. Last edited by Khomet Si Netjer; Feb 22, 2011 at 07:58 PM // 19:58.. |
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Feb 22, 2011, 08:09 PM // 20:09
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#52 | |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
setting 1400=(3+0.5X)Y and assuming we have 4 "other" targets (5 total) 1400=(3+2)Y=5Y --> Invoke (before Intensity) by itself needs to do 280. Lol: that's 212 base damage at the current multiplier of 1.32 (140 damage hits from 106 listed, which is only applicable to 80 armor + cracked or 60 armor targets). Can't excel sheet this time, it doesn't do algebra. Have to use MATLAB :/ This is only if intensity recharges as fast as Invoke, which it doesn't...there's a 1second lag (8+1=9). 1400=(3*1+3*0.9X+0.5X)Y if we take chain lightning to do 90% of Invoke...setting it to 4 "other targets" 1400=7.7Y --> 181 Damage needed from Invoke, 164 from chain lightning If we instead backsolve using the current limitation of 140 damage on Invoke to 60 armor: 1400=(3*1+3*90/106+0.5X)*140 10=3+270/106+0.5X = 8 targets hit by Intensity ... so if the mesmer hits 4 targets with Keystone you need to hit 8 which means there's > 10 mobs. To 100 armor targets you do listed (cracked armor lowers to 80, 80*0.75=60) 1400=(3*1+3*90/106+0.5X)*106 X=15.3, so let's say 15 targets. For searing flames, even if you do listed ([email protected]) Keystone: 33.48DPS/mob *(X-1) Signet of Clumsiness: 10.48DPS/mob *(X) Unnatural sig: 6.911DPS/mob *(X-1) Unnatural sig, target: 10.44DPS *(1) Sig of disruption, target: 4.7DPS *(1) Castigation sig, target: 3.97DPS *(1) X targets hit by Illusion mes, Y targets hit by searing Flames, Z melee buffed 33.48*(X-1)+10.48*X+6.911*(X-1)+10.44+4.7+3.97+16Z=106Y/2.75+14 --> 2.75 is the cooldown if you count 1s recharge (EBSOW+"40/40" which is actually 36%/36% ... this is extremely generous since 0.4*0.64=25.6% chance of EBSOW+wand and focus failing you) + 1 cast + 0.75 aftercast 33.48*(X-1)+10.48*X+6.911*(X-1)+10.44+4.7+3.97+16Z=(106/2.75)Y+14 33.48X-33.48+10.48X+6.911X-6.911+10.44+4.7+3.97+16Z-14=106/2.75Y 50.871X-21.281-14.00+16Z=106/2.75Y (50.871X-35.281+16Z)*2.75/106=Y assume 3 buffed melee (trip melee, like W+D+A) and 4 targets hit by mesmer so we get an answer. (50.871*4-35.281+48)*2.75/106=Y 5.6=Y , if searing flames does full 106 , so you need to hit 2 more targets in NM If we drop Strength of honor, you can hit 4.36 targets with Searing Flames and then you're equal to the Keystone mesmer. (50.871*4-35.281+0)*2.75/106=Y 4.36=Y Why would you bring a Searing Flames when you could bring more utility and the same damage? What happens if searing flames hits a 100 armor target with cracked armor for 70.7% damage? (50.871*4-35.281+48)*2.75/70.7=Y 8.4 targets=Y , you need to hit 9 targets and hope your burning DPS is doing a full 14DPS per mob What happens without EBSOW 100 armor target + cracked armor? 36% HCT + 36% HSR = 1*0.64+1*0.64+0.75 aftercast=3.03 (50.871*4-35.281+48)*3.03/70.7=Y 9.26 targets with searing flames and no buffed melee? (50.871*4-35.281+0)*3.03/70.7=Y 7.2087=Y 7.2 targets with searing flames Aftercast is not a problem with the mesmer since casts are 0.6 at most (and the signet of clumsiness is <1/4, unnatural =0.6s) and you only need to fire off 6 signets in 10 seconds which is fairly lenient since sig of clumsiness recharges in 5.44 while unnatural sig recharges in 6.80. If you have a problem with the numbers, I broke it down before the # of targets multiplier, so you can just multiply by whatever you want instead of 4 targets. Keystone itself is 34DPS/mob Also, with a minionmaster, adjacent range is not as hard as you make it out to be. I can run [email protected] on an ele and get 37+DPS (per mob) rather than put up with [email protected] for all ele AoEs that takes into account armor. With cracked armor on 100 armor and EBSOH you can pump out 70.7%*42+15=30+15=45, while a monk can dish out 48DPS/mob with [email protected] + 14DPS/mob from burning. The difference is I can use nonelite Eruption with Assassin's Promise. Last edited by LifeInfusion; Feb 22, 2011 at 09:41 PM // 21:41.. |
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Feb 23, 2011, 12:04 AM // 00:04
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#53 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
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Can't believe I'm doing this.
Your calculations didn't include the extra damage from Dual Shot, but included the extra damage from Weaken Armour. Yes there is healing reduction because AP doesn't kill the target the moment you apply it. Neither does SF kill the target the moment they start burning. You have 17s to kill a target after putting AP on it. Plenty of time for it to get healed. If you have considered how much damage YMLAD / FH / AP does to single targets then you should also have realized how much more damage AP / MoP does against single targets compared to SF, and yet you continue to say "but MoP has smaller AoE". If you have seriously used AP bars you'd know that when there are single / unballed targets left you ... don't use MoP. And you would know that Searing Flames damage vs. a single target is something like 5-60 DPS, well less than AP bars' ~170 DPS. For some reason you've permitted Weaken Armour support with SF, but not permitted other hexes on your team to help burn Hex Breaker. You don't mind if you do 200 DPS but everyone else on your team does 50 DPS, even though 100 DPS on everyone (including yourself) is clearly the superior option. You neglect the costs of having the Necro cast Weaken Armour, but count the benefits. You neglect that even if the Vanguard Sin gets blinded damage from YMLAD and FH are still perfectly functioning, unlike SF damage which is completely destroyed when you are Dazed (or lose Fire Attunement, for that matter). Any person who has seriously used AP and SF would be able to tell you how Diversion, Mistrust, Guilt, Migraine and Arcane Conundrum all hurt SF bars more than AP bars. I'm not going to explain. Either 1) think about it or 2) go out there and try it yourself. Why don't you calculate Ele AP builds vs. Searing Flames, assuming targets aren't perfectly balled? |
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Feb 23, 2011, 01:13 AM // 01:13
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#54 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: N/
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@Jeydra:
Here, I'll add your Dual Shot, although I'm not sure why anyone would bring this anymore. Also, rebalanced the mob size, since MoP has had 6 targets balled this whole time, while Searing Flames only had 5. Also figured in aftercast, allowing only a single attack within the 5 second window due to AP and EVA. Here, because you've been so amicable, I'll even add in the other half of the attack that doesn't make it in time, giving MoP the benefit of the doubt. (([(42x4)x5]+([(42x4)x[(.6x5)-(.75x2)]+(80+100)+(80)+[42x4x2])/10)+(31x1.5)=DPS [(840+252+260+336)/10]+46.5=DPS 215=DPS What healing reduction are you talking about? "Finish Him!" is named "Finish Him!" for a reason. Casting that normally kills your foe. And like I stated above, which you so conveniently read over, even if they live to have Healing Reduction applied, it's still not going to match the amount of DPS you lose from not spamming "Finish Him!" and "YMLAD!". Unless of course, you are implying that AP has healing reduction associated with it, which is just plain wrong. I believe I calculated this earlier: "([80+80+100]/5) + (31x3) = DPS ([YMLAD+FH+Deep Wound 100 Damage Max]/SpikeRecharge) + (EVA DPS x Number of EVA) = DPS 143 = DPS" Edit: I specifically said that we would spike down the targets individually after the initial spike. Not fast enough? Let's do the spike at 3 seconds: 179=DPS Okay, every 2 seconds because you are so pro: 223 = DPS Screw it. We're crankin' now. Every ONE second (Not possible I might add): 353 = DPS Sweet. Now we've beaten Searing Flames! Let's move on. Edit: Nice edit. So AP/FH/YMLAD kills the remaining X targets individally. Searing Flames kills them all together. It's pretty hard to hit a single foe with SF. Other Hexes? On Physway? What kind of Physway are you running?! Besides, it's at the beginning of the fight. If you can cast other Hexes to break Hex Breaker, I'm pretty sure the Ele can get Weaken Armor off and a few cover enchants on to block removal. What costs for Weaken Armor? Your ranger is casting the godaweful Dual Shot. You act like Weaken Armor doesn't boost any other damage but the Ele's. Furthermore, how are either of these bars effecting Team Damage next to MoP? If anything, the Ele has the option of bringing EBSoH where as the MoP doesn't. Dude, you lose 3-4 MoP hits if your EVA gets blinded. Using "YMLAD!" and "FH!" on a 2 second recharge is 130 DPS. Daze is also going to effect AP and EVA in addition to SF. Risking the loss of either is devastating to DPS. ANY caster hates to have Daze on them, except maybe the Dervish with his spiffy new FEnchs. Here you are with this Attunement stuff again. Cover it with your E/Mo or whatever else might be in your party before the fight. Where are the minions to absorb the casts (via Death Nova)? They have a much lower AL and are usually targeted first. I have thought about it (see: disruption hexes). I've played both. My HERO Ele doesn't have these issues because the Physicals the MoP has in their party are replaced by Mesmer's in the Ele's case, which end up interrupting allot of the hatred that flies at my casters. Give me an AP bar you want calculated. Last edited by Kaida the Heartless; Feb 23, 2011 at 01:30 AM // 01:30.. |
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Feb 23, 2011, 02:42 AM // 02:42
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#55 | |||
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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I just realized for the searing flames calc I did that I didn't subtract 1 cast every 7 seconds for reapplying burning...
33.48*(X-1)+10.48*X+6.911*(X-1)+10.44+4.7+3.97+16Z=106Y/2.75+14-106Y/7 (50.871*X-35.281+16*Z)/23.4025=Y assume 5 targets hit by Mesmer, 3 SoH = 11.41 = 12 targets ... keep in mind, this is Searing Flames at full 106 damage assume 5 targets hit by Mesmer, 0 SoH = 9.36=10 targets , 2x the targets. (X targets hit by Illusion mes, Y targets hit by searing Flames, Z melee buffed) meaning what I wrote earlier, Quote:
and from before all of this: Quote:
Quote:
3*30+20+16=126 for Warriors,Paragons 3*30+10+30=120 for Rangers 3*30+10=100 for Assassins and Dervishes (+ up to 20 Mysticism?) Of course, mobs have bonuses sometimes such as Burning Titans/Fist of the Titans, which have 143 armor to fire ... or Frost Titans which have 143 to cold. Wurms are another special case, pushing 160 armor ; Jade Cloaks & Armor &Bows have 140 armor. Disc of Chaos/Destroyer of Earth has 180 to Fire; The Great Destroyer which has 160. Last edited by LifeInfusion; Feb 23, 2011 at 04:09 AM // 04:09.. |
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Feb 23, 2011, 09:24 AM // 09:24
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#56 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Anglia, UK
Guild: Order of [Thay]
Profession: N/
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Quote:
To prevent the kiting problem, there are two PvE skills used to remedy easily: Ymlad, of course. Tryptophan Signet. Also, if you kill fast enough, you would notice that the only kiter is the target with Mark of Pain on them; everyone else dances around them. I often use paragon heroes with MoP, works just as well. |
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Feb 23, 2011, 12:42 PM // 12:42
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#57 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
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So AP / MoP still does more damage than SF - by a full 30+ points when you hit multiple foes, by like 120 points if you're hitting single target - and yet you're still debating? Why? Why don't you consider an extra copy of Dual Shot + Savage Shot on another 2 Rangers in the party, and add another 2 SF Eles to the mix, see what the DPS is now?
Healing reduction matters because although ideally the target dies almost instantly after FH, it might not happen. MoP kills all the foes together. Duh. You kind of mentioned the situation when the initial spike somehow failed to kill all monsters and you needed to wait for monsters to re-ball. Did I ever mention physway? You can get Weaken Armour off and a whole boatload of cover enchants and you still won't be able to set Destroyers on fire. Remember how we started discussing Hex Breaker. You said that "Hex Breaker does about the same for MoP Bomb". No it doesn't. YMLAD + FH = 130 DPS, Searing Flames with Dazed = how much DPS? Daze doesn't affect YMLAD and FH. You are even free to use YMLAD to KD any monster attacking you so you can cast safely. You cannot do anything similar with SF. How do you propose to cover your attunements against mobs of (say) 6 Bog Skale Blighters? How do you propose to get minions into damage range before you aggro the mob? So by the same argument that you don't have problems with Diversion etc, you don't need cover enchants anymore because your Mesmer interrupts all enchantment removal? What kind of ridiculousness is this ... **** calculations. Match times. Go do something in PvE, either H/H or 2-man, and take the /age. Pick anything other than 16-man areas and the Secret Snowmen Lair, and let's see what happens. Last edited by Jeydra; Feb 23, 2011 at 12:45 PM // 12:45.. |
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Feb 23, 2011, 01:00 PM // 13:00
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#58 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Apr 2006
Guild: [DVDF] Gp
Profession: Me/A
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Quote:
tho im liking the SOH varient of keystone, just a shame i dont play enough, and when i do its not with frontliners! gah! |
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Feb 23, 2011, 01:25 PM // 13:25
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#59 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Anglia, UK
Guild: Order of [Thay]
Profession: N/
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Quote:
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Feb 23, 2011, 01:53 PM // 13:53
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#60 | ||
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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Quote:
The thing is MoP at its core is 3 skills, AP+MoP+sin support (Rigor Mortis is only for areas with Block; Barbs is nice but not mandatory; FH! can be run by someone else to the same effect most times) whereas the Keystone signet mesmer needs Keystone + 4 signets (at a minimum) + Mantra of inscriptions + symbolic celerity (unless the only use is to pump out Keystone interrupt/damage). The last slot is either another signet which is of dubious usefulness since you only get 6 procs (Signet of clumsiness is 5 recharge under Mantra and Unnatural sig is 7) every 10 seconds with Keystone, so DP sig/Signet of return or SoH. Keystone is something you could run in a PUG, MoP often is not without coordination because people tend to run elemental weapons and avatars, among other things. I remember trying to run OoV Blood necro and that was a headache. In fact Quote:
Last edited by LifeInfusion; Feb 23, 2011 at 02:06 PM // 14:06.. |
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